co1 message board
Everything Else => General Discussion => Topic started by: rejoiceitssusan on August 17, 2010, 12:48:32 pm
-
Yeah war is horrible. and pointless. The state of our country is constantly depressing me. Especially that last part "We have no healthcare, a terrible education system, people still being oppressed and living in the ghettos." Plus my uncle is in Iraq at the moment.
Also that website is really interesting, thanks for sharing.
-
A! N! A! R! C! H! Y!
-
Your uncle is a brave man. I don't blame the soldiers for the war. I have nothing but the utmost respect for them and thank them for their willingness to defend our land. The leaders of our country and their underhanded ways and motives are what put the brave men and women of our armed forces there, and the reason that so many of them have lost their lives or have come home unable to integrate themselves back into our society due to the things that they've seen or been forced to do in the face of combat.
I hope that he comes home safe, along with all of our other troops.
Thanks. (: Yeah a lot of punks are like 'don't support the troops! blah blah blah' but they would die for you and your right to not support them. So even if you don't agree with how they do it, I think they still deserve respect. Most of them don't support the war anyway.
The worst thing ever to me is during the vietnam war hippies would send hate mail to the soldiers fighting. Even if they were drafted. What bullshit.
-
I've been thinking a lot lately about the wars that we're involved in...Whether you know it or not, our country is still deeply embroiled in battle in two different countries (Iraq and Afghanistan).
It's my personal opinion that we never belonged in Iraq in the first place. George W. Bush (Hitler, The Antichrist, whatever you want call him...) This is stupid and uncalled for, Hitler created a world war and made internment camps and death camps, Bush did not come close to that and saying he is like him is quite offensive. and our government definitely had an agenda when we invaded them. It didn't hurt that their oil reserves were rich and plentiful either...
Yes, we were attacked on 9/11, but by a few men claiming allegiance to a group known as Al-Quieda. As you know, their leader, Osama Bin Laden still has not been found, put on trial, or killed 10 years later. What have we accomplished? Endless numbers of dead citizens murdered by our troops...Thousands of our men and women killed...And trillions and trillions of our dollars spent.
I guess the things that bother me the most are that when Obama was campaigning he said that most of troops would be coming home by now. The last report that I heard was that he was planning on bringing starting to bring some of them home (handing over control to the Iraqi people) in 2014. During the end of Bush it was agreed that the US would hand over power by the end of 2011. Also, the fact that the media hides the fact that we are even fighting wars anymore. If you turn on the news for the next week on your idiot box and let it run non-stop, I'm willing to bet you that you won't hear a single word about our country being in either of those countries. You'll hear about Lindsay Lohan being in and out of prison and what she was wearing once an hour, but not a word about what's happening to our armed forces.This isn't even close to true, every channel talks about the wars and many analysts talk about how they disagree with the wars. Lastly, you won't hear anything about the taxpayer's money that's being spent. Do you have any idea how much money is being spent? Go to www.costofwar.com (http://www.costofwar.com) and see for yourself how much we're losing every second...
Our country is in the depths of a recession, almost in a depression. We (the tax payers) just bailed out the banks (from a problem that their own greed got themselves into) while they're busy taking away hard working families' homes. The cost of living keeps on going up, but wages don't. We have no healthcare, a terrible education system, people still being oppressed and living in the ghettos. How can this be justified?
Too many of us are complacent and we don't have our say.
Mind if I weigh in on your shpeel, thanks. Also I'm pretty sure Matt was kidding.
-
I was kidding. I am an anarchist, I'm just not your typical punx Captain Anarchy.
-
I was kidding. I am an anarchist, I'm just not your typical punx Captain Anarchy.
(http://rain.prohosting.com/stoue/casualties.jpg)
-
"but many people believe that he was it, and many people refer to him and compare him to Hitler."
So? that doesn't make it a legitimate claim. Bush didn't try to exterminate an entire race.
---
Where'd you copy + paste that middle part from?
"From the beginning, it has been led and controlled by Marxists and other dictators who hate freedom and Christianity. Everything the UN touches turns to ashes. The blood of millions of freedom-loving people drips from its hands."
....Are you serious right now?
Also, I thought you weren't Christian. Who cares if they hate Christianity?
"freedom-hating socialists and Muslim dictators"
O_O
that's some republican talk if I ever saw it...
-
Matt, I just wanted to hear your views on anarchy or being an anarchist, how to achieve anarchy, etc...A lot of punks think that "anarchy" just means no rules, no laws, etc...And obviously that's not realistic and would never work or be an option.
Not giving you a hard time, just wanted to hear what you had to say.
Vague as hell? I am an anti-capitalist first and an anarchist second. If there was a way to destroy capitalism while not having an anarchy and have a somewhat free society, I'd look into it. However, I don't believe there is. People say that anarchy couldn't work, I think it's the only thing that could work. Capitalism sure as hell doesn't work. Anarchism has worked plenty of times in the past.
How to reach anarchism? Educate the working class about it, and hold mass worker strikes with no demands. Make the government irrelevant because the community takes care of itself. Refuse the cops.
-
What's bad with Marxists, anyway? Communism as Marx had intended it was awesome, the way people like Stalin perverted it was close to blasphemy. Communism was supposed to be about freedom, not doing what ever Mr. Dictator says.
Anywho, I don't really support al the Bush bashing either. I think blaming him is giving him too much credit. I just can not believe that he had any power whatsoever during his time as a president. It all seems like some greater thing, in which he was just a pawn.
Hitler though, he deserves some credit. He was the mastermind behind it all (him and Goebels), and in contrast of Bush he was a genius! I disapprove of the whole taking over the world and killing millions of innocent people, but man that guy did some great things for Germany as well.
Christianity, I don't hate Christians or anything but...I would have expected us to have 'out-evolved' religion by now. It's halting our progress as a species at times.
Anarchy is lame and doesn't work. Not with this many people walking around. The basic ideas of freedom and such are cool, but it just doesn't work at all. Whether we like it or not, people need to be controlled. Because without control we are nothing but animals, and if we don't want to be like that then we need to be held back. I'd rather see us being held back by the people around us than by the people above us.
Most anarchists are nothing but punk rockers who need 'another thing' to stand out from the rest. Anarchy has gone from an ideal of peace to an ideal of rebellion.
-
Matt, I just wanted to hear your views on anarchy or being an anarchist, how to achieve anarchy, etc...A lot of punks think that "anarchy" just means no rules, no laws, etc...And obviously that's not realistic and would never work or be an option.
Not giving you a hard time, just wanted to hear what you had to say.
Vague as hell? I am an anti-capitalist first and an anarchist second. If there was a way to destroy capitalism while not having an anarchy and have a somewhat free society, I'd look into it. However, I don't believe there is. People say that anarchy couldn't work, I think it's the only thing that could work. Capitalism sure as hell doesn't work. Anarchism has worked plenty of times in the past.
How to reach anarchism? Educate the working class about it, and hold mass worker strikes with no demands. Make the government irrelevant because the community takes care of itself. Refuse the cops.
Community taking care of itself? Mass worker strikes? Anti-Captalism? Sounds like good ol' Marx to my ears
-
Matt, I just wanted to hear your views on anarchy or being an anarchist, how to achieve anarchy, etc...A lot of punks think that "anarchy" just means no rules, no laws, etc...And obviously that's not realistic and would never work or be an option.
Not giving you a hard time, just wanted to hear what you had to say.
Vague as hell? I am an anti-capitalist first and an anarchist second. If there was a way to destroy capitalism while not having an anarchy and have a somewhat free society, I'd look into it. However, I don't believe there is. People say that anarchy couldn't work, I think it's the only thing that could work. Capitalism sure as hell doesn't work. Anarchism has worked plenty of times in the past.
How to reach anarchism? Educate the working class about it, and hold mass worker strikes with no demands. Make the government irrelevant because the community takes care of itself. Refuse the cops.
Community taking care of itself? Mass worker strikes? Anti-Captalism? Sounds like good ol' Marx to my ears
Fuck marxists.
-
What's bad with Marxists, anyway? Communism as Marx had intended it was awesome, the way people like Stalin perverted it was close to blasphemy. Communism was supposed to be about freedom, not doing what ever Mr. Dictator says.
Marxism is oppression. Whenever there is a government, there will be oppression. Honestly, Lenin and Stalin were both awful and if you didn't see them coming you're delusional.
Anarchy is lame and doesn't work. Not with this many people walking around. The basic ideas of freedom and such are cool, but it just doesn't work at all. Whether we like it or not, people need to be controlled. Because without control we are nothing but animals, and if we don't want to be like that then we need to be held back. I'd rather see us being held back by the people around us than by the people above us.
Most anarchists are nothing but punk rockers who need 'another thing' to stand out from the rest. Anarchy has gone from an ideal of peace to an ideal of rebellion.
ZOMG ITS LAME!!! I GUESS I SHOULDN'T BE AN ANARCHIST CUZ ITS NOT COOL!!!
How doesn't it work? Human beings were anarchists for a long time before hierarchy was developed. Marxism doesn't work. Capitalism doesn't work. Monarchy doesn't work. Feudalism doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work.
I believe that human beings can take care of themselves in communities without the need for hierarchy and leaders. What's the difference between the people above us and around us then? No, most anarchists aren't punx. Some get into it from that, but most understand what it means. Most research.
-
That is bullshit.
-
"This is stupid and uncalled for, Hitler created a world war and made internment camps and death camps, Bush did not come close to that and saying he is like him is quite offensive."
We are all entitled to our opinions, and you are certainly entitled to yours...
I said "Hitler, The Antichrist, whatever YOU want to call him", referring to him as what other people refer to him as. Not necessarily what I refer to him as. I don't believe in god or the bible so I don't believe in an "Antichrist", but many people believe that he was it, and many people refer to him and compare him to Hitler.
The phrase "whatever you want to call him" is always used to express your views in a way that isnt first person, like SWIM. It's just a way to make a space between you and your views by making it look like other people agree with you by putting the word:you. And if you don't think he is then DONT PUT IT THERE! I don't think Obama is good, but I wouldn't say oh yeah Obama (or HITLER or THE ANTICHRIST whatever ya wanna call him....) because I don't believe that he is those things. And many people, or you?....
I don't know if you were a G.W.B. supporter, or if the use of the name "Hitler" offended you, but what would you call what Bush did? Can you justify it in some way? He lied to the American people and he attacked a country under false pretenses. Where are these "Weapons of mass destruction"?
No, George Bush didn't start a world war, nor are there death camps...We marched into a country and took it over, causing more havoc and disarray than you can imagine. The entire country is a warzone where innocent civilians are "casualties".
I never supposrted Bush, and I think throwing around the name Hitler to describe any politician you don't like is stupid and offensive. I call what he did an abuse of power, even though he was obviously not in charge, he wasn't the ones making the decision. I can't justify it, why do you think i'm on his side? WHat did I say that made me look like a Bush supporter? OMG I DIDN'T KNOW THERE WEREN'T WMDS I NEVER HEARD ABOUT IT ON TV, OR IN BOOKS, OR IN ARTICLES! I know exactly what the Bush administration did, don't lecture me on stuff I've known for years. And actually, we took over 2 countries and made civilians free game, neither can be justified.
Initially, the invasion of Iraq was sold to the American people on the premise that Iraq posed an immediate risk to the safety and security of the United States. We were told that Iraq had amassed Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) and if we did not attack first, we were sure to be victimized by terrorist attacks from Iraq.
Americans were also told that there were significant ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda. It was even propounded that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.
Since the completion of the invasion, however, the Bush administration has recanted every single reason it originally gave for waging war against Iraq except the vague explanation that we were "fighting terrorism." No WMD were found. Bush's aides confessed that no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda has been established, and Bush himself admitted that Hussein had nothing to do with the September 11 terrorist attacks.
So, why did we really go to war? Some suggest that oilmen Bush and Cheney wanted to procure Iraq's rich oil fields. Others say it was revenge for Daddy Bush's embarrassment that had been lingering from Gulf War I.
However, in his recent speech before the United Nations, President Bush revealed the real reason we invaded Iraq. He said plainly that the reason we invaded Iraq was "to defend the peace and the credibility of the United Nations."
There you have it from the lips of Bush himself. The reason America went to war with Iraq was to defend the credibility of the United Nations. This must come as quite a shock to all those people who thought we went to war to defend the security of the United States.
That is NOT the reason we went to war. We went to war because Bush and his administration wanted to and used 9/11 and terrorism and WMDs as scapegoats to go to war there. Bush only likes the UN because they backed the invasion of Iraq because of Colin Powells speech in the UN. Why would you believe what Bush says now and the reasons he says now but not the old reasons? Oh right because you have a bias, you don't like the UN so you choose that reason as the real reason we entered Iraq. Please.
As to the credibility of the UN, I didn't know it had any! Since its inception, the UN has done nothing but oppose the interests of the United States. From the beginning, it has been led and controlled by Marxists and other dictators who hate freedom and Christianity. Everything the UN touches turns to ashes. The blood of millions of freedom-loving people drips from its hands. Mr. President, the United Nations has no credibility worth defending!
If our President and Congress were truly dedicated to defending the interests and security of the United States, they would expel the United Nations from U.S. soil and remove America from UN membership. They would also tell the freedom-hating socialists and Muslim dictators within the UN to politely "get lost," and they would start treating the United States as an independent, sovereign country again!
There will, no doubt, be enemy-nations that America must fight in the future; America has many enemies. When it becomes necessary to send our young men to fight and die, however, it would be nice if we knew they were fighting, not to defend the credibility of the United Nations, but to defend the security of the United States of America.
You realize that the US is one of the five consistent members of the security Council in the UN right? We have more power than most countries in the UN because of that, and the UN backed bushes invasion of Iraq, they take our side alot. And stfu about that freedom hating, christian hating, marxist dictator shit, you are a right wing asshole. You are a nationalist who puts his country before others. And where the fuck did you get the Muslim dictator shit? And freedom hating Socialists? This aint the 50's, this isnt a tea party convention, Socialists don't hate freedom, Socialism is a mch better way of attaining freedom, the Government doesnt give a shit about your freedom. And the UN isnt actually IN the US, it is in a nuetral spot, it is within NYC because it is a city that is very easy to get into, by train or car or plane or whatever, YOU DO KNOW part of the UN is in the Netherlands right? And that crap about America must fight and die for freedom is shit. We don't need to fight for shit, we only have enemies because we fucked them over, either economically, or militarilly. And wtf? Just young men? No women? Was that article written in the 50's or something?
Durng the end of Bush it was agreed that the US would hand over power by the end of 2011.
Yes, it was "agreed" that the US would hand over power by the end of 2011, with the troops withdrawing slowly...BUT, they are unable to withdraw when there are still insurgencies and chaos. The report that I heard said that we might have to stay there training their armed forces and keeping control of things (in Afghanistan as well until 2014 and possibly longer.) A friend of mine that's in the ARMY told me that we'll never leave there completely. How much that means, I can't say for sure, but he did a tour in Iraq and a tour in Afghanistan and he's still training troops to go over there...
This isn't even close to true, every channel talks about the wars and many analysts talk about how they disagree with the wars.
I know that there are plenty of "round table" news shows that have analysts talking about the war, the economy, etc...I was talking about newscasts that you see everyday, the ones that pop up in-between television shows and at 6:00 and 11:00 every night. The ones that you're talking about are specialized and aimed at a certain demographic that watches them. I was talking about your run of the mill news for people who watch regular t.v. and don't hear anything about the fact that our country is still involved in wars. It's hard to get your point across on the internet, when you're not actually talking in person. Many things can be taken the wrong way.
You made very valid points and I respect you for reading what I had to say and responding. I was trying to voice my opinion and open up some dialogue, and that's what I did. Thank you.
Ok 1st off, we never fully leave a county, we still occupy Germany and Korea, this is nothing new. You realize that those people on the news don't have the expertise to say anything about politics excet how to say the death toll right? If you wanna hear real news watch REAL NEWS.
-
HIDE YO WIFE, HIDE YO KIDS AND HIDE YO HUSBAND CUZ THEY RAPIN ERRYBODY OUT HERE!!!
-
Many people believe alot of things, if you don't agree with it dont bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unecessary.
If you didnt agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a coversation.
-
Plus you didn't even cite it or put quotation marks around it, what were we supposed to think?
-
What's wrong with Marxists? You say that Lenin and Stalin were dictators and therefor Marxism sucks? Lenin was not a Marcist, he was barely a communist. Stalin was neither. The Soviet Union under Stalin had little in common with what Marx had wanted it to be. Communism was supposed to be about freedom and the working classes, communities working for themselves and not about 5 year plans and nationwide opression. In the original 'pure' communism there was no leading party which had all powers.
When I said that anarchy is lame I didn't mean that it isn't cool, but that the ideas behind it often are unreachable. Yes, humans were anarchists a long time ago, but we were only with a small amount of people back then. If you got a lot of people, anarchy just won't work. The only results will be chaos and death. The world population would be brought back to a minumum thanks to the people who want to kill, and the only people who remain would be those who refuses to kill, even if someone killed their families. And then you will have a perfect society, perhaps. But it would have come at a great cost. That is what's 'lame' about it.
I still think anarcho-communism is the best chance we have of getting out of this mess we're in right now
-
Many people believe alot of things, if you don't agree with it dont bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unecessary.
If you didnt agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a coversation.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm91/igordog18/junk/fuckyou-1.jpg)
-
I do like you, just this whole thread has rubbed me the wrong way because I disagree with a lot of what you said. We're cool but if you say stuff that pisses me off I'm probably gonna say something....
-
Many people believe alot of things, if you don't agree with it dont bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unecessary.
If you didnt agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a coversation.
CR and Matt...I never wanted it to reach this point, BUT you guys pushed the issue. It seems to me that when you're talking about something you're stuck on your ideas and you refuse to hear ANYTHING else that anyone has to say. It's all, "That's stupid, that's bullshit, etc..."
Now, I'm going to guess that you're both maybe, what? 19-20 years old? You probably still live with your parents, (and if not, you've been out on your own maybe 6 months to a year, but I doubt it.)
This isn't a personal attack, but I'm calling it like I see it....You have NO IDEA what the REAL WORLD is all about. Everything that you THINK YOU KNOW came from books, the tv, and other sources that you see from your safe little bubble inside your own little world that has nothing to do with reality.
Well guess what? REAL LIFE is much different that what you see from that little bubble. Other people who have lived outside of that bubble where things aren't so clear cut and politically correct have opinions too.
Have you ever had to live in this society without protection? Have you ever had to pay a gas, electric, or water bill, and if you're a few days late be in fear that they'll shut you off and charge you triple to turn it back on? Have you ever had to pay school and property taxes? Have you ever owned and operated a business? Have you ever NOT had healthcare and had a serious problem, then had to decide whether to eat or to go to the doctor?
I'm guessing the answer is no.
Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems...Anarchy would never work in this world again. You have no idea what people are capable of. Do you really expect the high and mighty rich white people to give up what they have to live at the same level as the poor black people living below their means in the projects in these utopian communities that you dream where everyone takes care of one another? When the world is moving forward everyday (not necessarily the way we would ALL like), do you really expect that people would ever be willing to take a step backwards to start over? Fuck no.
You need to listen to what people have to say, state your piece, and talk in a reasonable manner. If you take something away from it, good for you. If not, that's fine, but you can't just be stuck on your own ideas forever...And I gaurantee you that you won't be forever. The older that you get and the more that you learn about life, the more open you'll be to hearing what people have to say. You may not believe me now, but it's true.
Name calling and telling people that they're flat out wrong (even when they're being respectful to you) is bullshit. You'll never get anywhere with that attitude. Live out in the REAL WORLD for a little while, treat people with respect, speak in your own voice, and maybe someone will take you a little more seriously.
Stop being an ageist, just because someone is younger does not mean they are less intelligent or than someone else.
This won't end well... for people other than me. All this arguing is great for the forum, it makes it look active. We should really get Steve or All Dead in here, unless they already joined under another name, in which case, post something bitches.
On the subject of all this, personally, I don' t really care.
-
What's wrong with Marxists? You say that Lenin and Stalin were dictators and therefor Marxism sucks? Lenin was not a Marcist, he was barely a communist. Stalin was neither. The Soviet Union under Stalin had little in common with what Marx had wanted it to be. Communism was supposed to be about freedom and the working classes, communities working for themselves and not about 5 year plans and nationwide opression. In the original 'pure' communism there was no leading party which had all powers.
When I said that anarchy is lame I didn't mean that it isn't cool, but that the ideas behind it often are unreachable. Yes, humans were anarchists a long time ago, but we were only with a small amount of people back then. If you got a lot of people, anarchy just won't work. The only results will be chaos and death. The world population would be brought back to a minumum thanks to the people who want to kill, and the only people who remain would be those who refuses to kill, even if someone killed their families. And then you will have a perfect society, perhaps. But it would have come at a great cost. That is what's 'lame' about it.
I still think anarcho-communism is the best chance we have of getting out of this mess we're in right now
Wait, what? Did you pull this entire thing out of your ass? I believe in communism. This is something people have a hard time understanding, but anarchy is just a tactic to reach communism. Get it? Living together in communities that take care of themselves, that's communism. No government controlling it, that's anarchism. The results won't be chaos or death. Why would they? You're acting like having no government means that killing someone would have no consequences. Why do people kill? Why would someone who is offered a home, food, and water in return for working in a community kill? Anarchism is NOT a utopia. That is bullshit. People would still get killed/raped. I am not claiming it is a utopia, I'm only claiming it will be much better than what we currently have.
-
BUT EVER SINCE GOVERMENT EXISTED RAPES AND MURDERS HAVE NEVER HAPPEND AND THAT IS WHY ANARCIES IS BAD IF SOMETHING IS ILLEGAL THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE WOULD EVER DO IT, THEY MIGHT GET IN TROUBLE.
-
CR and Matt...I never wanted it to reach this point, BUT you guys pushed the issue. It seems to me that when you're talking about something you're stuck on your ideas and you refuse to hear ANYTHING else that anyone has to say. It's all, "That's stupid, that's bullshit, etc..."
Well have you ever thought "hm, maybe my opinion IS bullshit?"
Now, I'm going to guess that you're both maybe, what? 19-20 years old? You probably still live with your parents, (and if not, you've been out on your own maybe 6 months to a year, but I doubt it.)
15. CR's 14. Thanks for guessing my mental age 5 years above what I actually am, though.
This isn't a personal attack, but I'm calling it like I see it....You have NO IDEA what the REAL WORLD is all about. Everything that you THINK YOU KNOW came from books, the tv, and other sources that you see from your safe little bubble inside your own little world that has nothing to do with reality.
Well guess what? REAL LIFE is much different that what you see from that little bubble. Other people who have lived outside of that bubble where things aren't so clear cut and politically correct have opinions too.
I realize that I haven't lived in the "real world" but I try to learn and listen to those who have lived in the "real world". By the way, saying that school and adolescence isn't a part of the real world is fucking retarded.
Have you ever had to live in this society without protection? Have you ever had to pay a gas, electric, or water bill, and if you're a few days late be in fear that they'll shut you off and charge you triple to turn it back on? Have you ever had to pay school and property taxes? Have you ever owned and operated a business? Have you ever NOT had healthcare and had a serious problem, then had to decide whether to eat or to go to the doctor?
I'm guessing the answer is no.
You are correct, but let's get to what that has to do with anything.
Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems...
Okay, settle down, brosef. You think they taught me about anarchism in school? Bullshit, everything I know about anarchism I researched on my own time.
Anarchy would never work in this world again. You have no idea what people are capable of. Do you really expect the high and mighty rich white people to give up what they have to live at the same level as the poor black people living below their means in the projects in these utopian communities that you dream where everyone takes care of one another?
Why wouldn't it work? What are people capable of and how does that affect an anarchistic society? No, I expect the poor to take it from the rich or kill the rich. Yes, that's right, in a revolutionary situation, I would not fret at the killing of the bourgeoisie. It's not a utopia, for fucks sake.
When the world is moving forward everyday (not necessarily the way we would ALL like), do you really expect that people would ever be willing to take a step backwards to start over? Fuck no.
Go fucking ask those in India and Africa how forward capitalism is moving their communities. See how unwilling they are to go back to the days before colonialism. Also, who said we would be going backwards? You think there would be no technology in an anarchistic society? Bullshit.
You need to listen to what people have to say, state your piece, and talk in a reasonable manner. If you take something away from it, good for you. If not, that's fine, but you can't just be stuck on your own ideas forever...And I gaurantee you that you won't be forever. The older that you get and the more that you learn about life, the more open you'll be to hearing what people have to say. You may not believe me now, but it's true.
Say something worth listening to and I'll give it a shot.
Name calling and telling people that they're flat out wrong (even when they're being respectful to you) is bullshit. You'll never get anywhere with that attitude. Live out in the REAL WORLD for a little while, treat people with respect, speak in your own voice, and maybe someone will take you a little more seriously.
Sometimes people are flat out wrong, you fucking prick. Also, my internet speak and my real life speak are different, so don't lecture me on one when you've only heard me through the other.
-
BUT EVER SINCE GOVERMENT EXISTED RAPES AND MURDERS HAVE NEVER HAPPEND AND THAT IS WHY ANARCIES IS BAD IF SOMETHING IS ILLEGAL THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE WOULD EVER DO IT, THEY MIGHT GET IN TROUBLE.
YEAH HAVING A BIG METAL BOX WE SEND BAD PPLS STOPS PPL FROM DOING BAD THINGS.
-
The results indeed won't be chaos and death, like you said, if you have something like anarcho-communism. Anarchism on it's own will probably lead to it, that's just how we humans work.
Anywho, I'm dropping this conversation. The atmosphere is way too tense and calling names or asking if I pulled something out of my ass is far from a normal way to debate about something.
-
sez you, I fully endorse name calling and off-topic personal attacks on my forum, THIS IS THE INTERNET, BITCH.
-
sez you, I fully endorse name calling and off-topic personal attacks on my forum, THIS IS THE INTERNET, BITCH.
Whether you approve of it or not has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's no way to run a debate.
-
(http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/9985/original/internet-serious-business.jpg?1250726833)
-
The results indeed won't be chaos and death, like you said, if you have something like anarcho-communism. Anarchism on it's own will probably lead to it, that's just how we humans work.
No, it's not.
-
Then you haven't seen humans when all protection and all certainty fall away.
-
That's what I'm saying...
We seem to be more on one line here, hehe.
I'm 18 now but I remember that not even a year ago I thought I knew all the answers. I left my school and started hanging out with different people. Some of them are squatters. and just being around them and seeing close hand what they have to deal with just to get by. Man, not even having to face those things myself made me question about everything I ever knew. I think I've experienced quite a bit in my life, but nothing that has anything to do with capitalism or communism/anarchy or whatever.
So yeah, I was like that when I was 15 as well. Laster quite a few years until something started opening my eyes. I guess there's a window in my bubble. I'm planning on moving out next year, probably squat too since a place to stay costs so much these days. I now know that I hardly know anything about myself, while I used to think I knew everything about me. Even now i have a long way to go
Long story short, Igor's right about a lot of things. People should listen to you more often
-
People like me would launch satellites and keep the internet running, people who enjoy doing things and expect nothing in return would do those things, expecting nothing, if not very much in return. To assume that an anarchist society would be living in caves with stone knives and wearing bearskins is ridiculous. Technology would probably progress faster, because people would not have as much standing in their way stopping them from making new technologies. New stuff, better than what already exists is invented every day, most of it is never used because the companies that control the old thing use their influence to stop the new thing from being developed, so they can keep their power. with no powers stopping new technological advancements, and no "experts" saying what can and can't be done, technology would still progress.
-
You would have to go far out of your way to gather the parts needed for a satelite and do a lot of work just putting it together. Then, you're going to have to find a huge-ass rocket. After doing all the calculations for making a thing orbit around a planet (which probably is a lot harder than I think it is), you can have your satelite.
And what you get from it? A few thank yous, and a few beers. You really thinking about devoting a few years of your life for that? If you are, then you're cool. If you're not, you're still cool but also human xD
(no one ever said anything about cavemen btw)
-
Ya'll need to smart up before I bring Sertra and Steve here to rape you.
-
I did not say I would launch satellites myself, no, I said people like me would. There are people everywhere that have the knowledge, or would be willing to learn how to do things that they enjoy doing and would not ask for anything in return. Unfortunately, many people do not have the economic means to accomplish their goal, and they end up stuck in some dead-end job. Would I like to be a astrophysicist? You bet. Will I ever have enough money to go to college for years on end and do that? Unfortunately, no I will probably be stuck on this chicken farm all my life, or if I get lucky, have a job working on computers. I know of people who go to school to be doctors and get good grades, but can't pay and end up flipping hamburgers, that is an absolute waste of potential, and without capitalism, could easily be averted.
-
Corporate capitalism is a bitch indeed, just like economic and social Darwinism.
The question is, would the people like you from other communities be willing/allowed to work with you for your community. And if they are allowed and willing to, do they have the time?
I feel for ya, man.
One thing I love about my country; our government pays for a part of your college (given that you finish it within the time they give you). The only reason why I can't become a pyschiatrist is because I have (and still am...) too lazy to get high grades, and therefor do not qualify (and probably can't handle) the high education needed for a job like that. Whereas you were kinda robbed of your chances (or were never given them to begin with), I pushed them away from myself. So fuck me, and go you.
But yeah, waste of potential is all around us. A friend of mine could have become a judge, but because of some fucked up accident at his school he got kicked out. Now he's laying bricks all day long. Wishing for that stuff to end is kinda hypocritical of me, seeing as I'm wasting my own potential.
The world is kinda like the song
We get torn apart, all our lives. Just so we're useless or gifted, loved or despised.
-
Yes..I just learned that the BATTLE TROOPS left Iraq last night and most of them are coming home. I guess that I spoke too soon. This doesn't necessarily mean that the war there is over, because things are still very unstable, but it is a step in the right direction.
(The article below is taken from msnbc.com)
Last full U.S. combat brigade leaves Iraq
Final fighting force rolls into Kuwait; 50,000 Americans to remain
"IRAQ-KUWAIT BORDER — The last U.S. combat troops crossed the border into Kuwait on Thursday morning, bringing to a close the active combat phase of a 7½-year war that overthrew the dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein, forever defined the presidency of George W. Bush and left more than 4,400 American service members and tens of thousands of Iraqis dead.
The final convoy of the Army’s 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, based at Fort Lewis, Wash., began entering Kuwait about 1:30 a.m. (6:30 p.m. Wednesday ET), carrying the last of the 14,000 U.S. combat forces in Iraq, said NBC’s Richard Engel, who has been traveling with the brigade as it moved out this week.
NBC News video showed the last Stryker vehicles rolling up to the gate. A guard pulled it back, and the vehicles drove through. The gate closed behind them.
P.J. Crowley, a spokesman for the State Department, told msnbc TV that while the departure is “an historic moment,” he said, it is not the end of the U.S. mission in Iraq.
“We are ending the war ... but we are not ending our work in Iraq,” he said. “We have a long-term commitment to Iraq.”
The White House website first trumpeted the "End of Combat in Iraq" before backtracking to note that the official end of combat operations is Aug. 31.
Still, and as the last soldiers reached Kuwait after midnight, they said they were proud of their effort."
I guess that I chose the wrong time to talk about the war in IRAQ at least...I still don't agree with us ever going there, or the motives behind it. I know that some of you have said that it wasn't GWB's decision to do it, but as far as I'm concerned he was the face of the evil empire that put our men and women there, and regardless of whether or not he had the final say, he was one of "THEM".
Yeah, I saw this last night, the military will still be in Iraq training the Iraqi army and trying to make it a sustainable force. While also trying to make a sustainable government. I doubt it will actually work but we'll see what happens.
I appreciate you recognizing the pull out timeline and I agree, we never should have gone into Iraq, but there was no way to stop it, many people from Bush's administration have said he wanted to go into Iraq no matter what. It was just a matter of what excuse they/he would use.
I don't buy the stuff about how this isnt a war anymore but I don't know enough about the subject to take a exact point or a exact side.
-
Anyone else afraid that putting up a 'sustainable government' means setting up yet another puppet government?
-
Anyone else afraid that putting up a 'sustainable government' means setting up yet another puppet government?
Exactly.
-
Many people believe a lot of things, if you don't agree with it don’t bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unnecessary.
If you didn’t agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a conversation.
CR and Matt...I never wanted it to reach this point, BUT you guys pushed the issue. It seems to me that when you're talking about something you're stuck on your ideas and you refuse to hear ANYTHING else that anyone has to say. It's all, "That's stupid, that's bullshit, etc..."
I’m not stuck on an idea, I just didn’t agree with yours. I listened to all of your points, took an opinion, and threw in my own opinions, I heard, and I reacted, what else do you expect in a debate?
Now, I'm going to guess that you're both maybe, what? 19-20 years old? You probably still live with your parents, (and if not, you've been out on your own maybe 6 months to a year, but I doubt it.)
This isn't a personal attack, but I'm calling it like I see it....You have NO IDEA what the REAL WORLD is all about. Everything that you THINK YOU KNOW came from books, the tv, and other sources that you see from your safe little bubble inside your own little world that has nothing to do with reality
Well guess what? REAL LIFE is much different that what you see from that little bubble. Other people who have lived outside of that bubble where things aren't so clear cut and politically correct have opinions too.
Oh yeah, I don’t know what the real world is all about, I’ve been in my room for 14 years and never met other people with different opinions, other faiths, anything like that. You know nothing about my life so don’t presume what I have run into and what I have done. Just because you are older doesn’t make my opinion any less credible.
Have you ever had to live in this society without protection? Have you ever had to pay a gas, electric, or water bill, and if you're a few days late be in fear that they'll shut you off and charge you triple to turn it back on? Have you ever had to pay school and property taxes? Have you ever owned and operated a business? Have you ever NOT had healthcare and had a serious problem, then had to decide whether to eat or to go to the doctor?
I'm guessing the answer is no.
Yeah, the answer is no, but where did this come up? When did this turn into I’VE HAD MORE ROADBLOCKS, I KNOW MORE, I’VE EXPERIENCED MORE SO I’M RIGHT. Economic trouble and wealth does not define a person’s life.
Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems...Anarchy would never work in this world again. You have no idea what people are capable of. Do you really expect the high and mighty rich white people to give up what they have to live at the same level as the poor black people living below their means in the projects in these utopian communities that you dream where everyone takes care of one another? When the world is moving forward everyday (not necessarily the way we would ALL like), do you really expect that people would ever be willing to take a step backwards to start over? Fuck no.
Yes, I know what I have learned in High School and I know I am still learning, I become more tolerant and more knowledgeable as I get older, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know stuff, or have strong opinions, or am not able to debate. Thanks for resorting to calling me a prick, that really helps your case. The part I bolded, whether you realize it or not was racist, not all rich people are white, not all poor people are black. It is not a matter of race, it is a matter of who has what and who is controlling who in the economy. If you think Anarchy is so shitty, how do you think we should solve the problem of globalized capitalism? You posted very liberal ideas, then posted an article that was obviously far right leaning I don’t get it. Honestly I don’t consider myself an Anarchist, and I can’t sum up my views in one single word, am I am proud of that.
You need to listen to what people have to say, state your piece, and talk in a reasonable manner. If you take something away from it, good for you. If not, that's fine, but you can't just be stuck on your own ideas forever...And I gaurantee you that you won't be forever. The older that you get and the more that you learn about life, the more open you'll be to hearing what people have to say. You may not believe me now, but it's true.
Name calling and telling people that they're flat out wrong (even when they're being respectful to you) is bullshit. You'll never get anywhere with that attitude. Live out in the REAL WORLD for a little while, treat people with respect, speak in your own voice, and maybe someone will take you a little more seriously.
You are upset we don’t agree with you. You thought “I’m Mr. Olderthanallofyou, I can tell you guys what I think and you will all agree and we will have a big Strike Anywhere party. That didn’t happen, you got called out on stuff that other people didn’t agree with and now you’re upset. Also if you want to actually debate, respond to all of my response, don’t pick and choose what you want to talk about.
-
Well, economic trouble and wealth does define a part of a person's life. And this dude being older than us does make him more knowledgeable about some stuff. Just take racism as example, you don't know how hard it is until you become the constant victim of it. Or being evicted.
But you're right, running into problems in high school is no less real than running into problems when you're on your own.
I never saw Igordog being like ''I'm older so I am right'', he was more like ''I am older, so I've experienced a lot so I know what I'm talking about''.
He never meant to say ''You're wrong cause you live in a bubble'', but more like ''Your opinions and stuff are still being formed, and might change completely'' (I think, don't take my word for it).
I think with 'the real world' he meant the world as you experience it when you're on your own. So yeah, when it comes to paying bills and stuff like that we have not yet experienced the real world. But when it comes to looking at how fucked up things are right now in the world, and dealing with emotional stuff (like losing those you love, being abused and stuff like that) we have experienced the real world all to well. It's just how you define 'the real world', really
-
Well, economic trouble and wealth does define a part of a person's life. And this dude being older than us does make him more knowledgeable about some stuff. Just take racism as example, you don't know how hard it is until you become the constant victim of it. Or being evicted.
Yes it defines part of a persons life, but all of his examples had to do with not being able to get by economically. It reminded me of all the stupid arguments i've come across that are just "I'M POORER THAN YOU!"
But you're right, running into problems in high school is no less real than running into problems when you're on your own.
I never saw Igordog being like ''I'm older so I am right'', he was more like ''I am older, so I've experienced a lot so I know what I'm talking about''.
He never meant to say ''You're wrong cause you live in a bubble'', but more like ''Your opinions and stuff are still being formed, and might change completely'' (I think, don't take my word for it).
More experience=/=wise. That was the poin I was trying to make. Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems... Here he sounds pissed at us and says we think this, we think that. I don't think I know all the answeres, I never have, never will, my opinions will constantly change, I know this and found it out a while ago. He sounds like an ageist frankly.
I think with 'the real world' he meant the world as you experience it when you're on your own. So yeah, when it comes to paying bills and stuff like that we have not yet experienced the real world. But when it comes to looking at how fucked up things are right now in the world, and dealing with emotional stuff (like losing those you love, being abused and stuff like that) we have experienced the real world all to well. It's just how you define 'the real world', really
He used his age to seem superior and make our points seem less credible because we haven't gone out in the real world. We were talking about the wars in Iraq and Aghanistan and he throws in stuff about the real world. Totally out of the blue and ridiculous. If someone who was in the real world and had my exact views was talking he would have no ammo, he would actually have to debate points, he seems to be avoiding that, since he totally disregarded most of my responses to his posts.
-
Ageism doesn't really piss me off. Igordog just seems to think that my age has something to do with whether or not anarchism could work.
-
I will make a response later, I am on vacation and will be on the road all day tomorrow and will not have the oppurtunity to get on the internet until very early sunday.
-
I've never heard the term "ageism" until Floyd used it yesterday and Matt used it again today. See, we're always learning new things...I feel that we're beating a dead horse here...I'm going to throw in my two cents and them I'm done with it. I hope that we can all still be friends, respect each other's opinions (although we don't have to agree on anything), and move on to a new subject.
I’m not stuck on an idea, I just didn’t agree with yours. I listened to all of your points, took an opinion, and threw in my own opinions, I heard, and I reacted, what else do you expect in a debate?
My point was the lack of respect, the use of terms like "That's stupid, that's such bullshit, etc...", and the fact that you were unwilling to acknowledge someone else's points as being somewhat valid. That meant to me that you were stuck on your own ideas. I felt that I explained myself on that rather clearly.
Maybe saying That’s stupid was not the best thing to say, but I did acknowledge your points as valid. Until I saw muslim dictators and freedom hating socialists, besides that I saw them as avlid and responded to them as valid points.
Oh yeah, I don’t know what the real world is all about, I’ve been in my room for 14 years and never met other people with different opinions, other faiths, anything like that. You know nothing about my life so don’t presume what I have run into and what I have done. Just because you are older doesn’t make my opinion any less credible.
I don't think that I'm better than you because I'm older than you. I just know from my own experience and the experience of pretty much every other teenager that I've known/grown up with that we all thought that we had the answers at your age, but once we got out on our own, matured (I WILL GIVE YOU THAT YOU SEEM VERY MATURE AND INTELLIGENT FOR SOMEONE YOUR AGE), lived in the world outside outside the safety of highschool/college and our parent's homes, and faced adulthood our views and opinions changed A LOT. You may be the exception, and if so, good for you. I will commend you. I feel that I explained that rather clearly too.
I realize that my ideas are still growing, but I’m pretty sure yours are too. Everyones opinions are changing all the time, if they weren’t then they would be one stubborn bastard.
Yeah, the answer is no, but where did this come up? When did this turn into I’VE HAD MORE ROADBLOCKS, I KNOW MORE, I’VE EXPERIENCED MORE SO I’M RIGHT. Economic trouble and wealth does not define a person’s life.
I'm not just talking about me. I'm talking about adults living outside of what I called "your safe little bubble" in general. Although I've faced some of these roadblocks, (and many more that I didn't bring up), it doesn't make me "better" than you. It just means that I have more experience in the real world than you. I'm was saying then and I'm still saying now that you can have all of the romantic ideas that you want to, but once you get out into the real world, it's a tough place. And guess what...You have to follow the rules and bite and scratch and kick to survive. The way that you "think" it should be and the way that it is are light years apart. and nothing's changing anytime soon.
Thanks for saying that my opinions aren’t credible and I haven’t lived in the real world so my ideas are less valid. I also never said anything about anarchism, so I don’t know where this stuff is coming from. I said very little about my actual political views.
You are upset we don’t agree with you. You thought “I’m Mr. Olderthanallofyou, I can tell you guys what I think and you will all agree and we will have a big Strike Anywhere party. That didn’t happen, you got called out on stuff that other people didn’t agree with and now you’re upset. Also if you want to actually debate, respond to all of my response, don’t pick and choose what you want to talk about.
I didn't get upset that you didn't agree with me. The only time that I got upset was when you started with your "that's bullshit", "that's stupid"...You can see above about that. I explained above also about the "Mr. I'm older than all of you" stuff too. I expect to be respected when I say something, even when the person doesn't agree with me. I treat people with respect when I don't agree with them, and that's all that I ask in return. If that weren't the case, I'd be in jail right now for killing just about everyone I come in contact with because most people don't agree with my points of view on most subjects.
I'll be back to finish...I have to take my girlfriend to work.
I respected you, I don’t know where this stuff is coming from.
-
Yes, I know what I have learned in High School and I know I am still learning, I become more tolerant and more knowledgeable as I get older, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know stuff, or have strong opinions, or am not able to debate. Thanks for resorting to calling me a prick, that really helps your case. The part I bolded, whether you realize it or not was racist, not all rich people are white, not all poor people are black. It is not a matter of race, it is a matter of who has what and who is controlling who in the economy. If you think Anarchy is so shitty, how do you think we should solve the problem of globalized capitalism? You posted very liberal ideas, then posted an article that was obviously far right leaning I don’t get it. Honestly I don’t consider myself an Anarchist, and I can’t sum up my views in one single word, am I am proud of that.
I believe that you know plenty of stuff. I said above that you seem very intelligent and well spoken for someone your age. A pseudo intelligent prick as far as I'm concerned is someone who recites things (most of the time word for word) that they've read in books and then refuses to hear what other people have to say, taking the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. I'll apologize for using the term "prick", but is it any worse than, "that's stupid", "that's bullshit", or "you're a right wing asshole"? Yes, I was starting to get a bit heated when I wrote that, and I apologize for it. It was uncalled for.
Maybe I shouldn’t have said that’s stupid, but I didn’t recite things word for word, the things I said were all my own views that were in my own words. But thanks for thinking my views and ideas could be published.
The part that you "bolded" was not at all racist. I was thinking to myself as I wrote it, someone's going to call me a racist for writing this...Well guess what buddy? Walk through the ghettos of MOST OF AMERICA and tell me who you see. Walk through the streets of Beverly Hills and tell me who you see. Yes, you will see a percentage of whites living in the ghettos, but it is largely African Americans. Yes you will see a small percentage of rich African Americans in Beverly Hills, but it's mostly white people. I WAS USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE. I wasn't saying that one is better than the other, or that ALL whites are rich and ALL blacks are poor. I know for a fact that I live in the suburbs, and there are barely any black families here. If you go to my aunt's neighborhood, which is very rough, crime ridden, and dilapidated, they are one of the few white families left there. That's not racism. That's truth. But, you're one of those people who cries foul or calls someone a racist as soon as you hear the words "black" or "white".
I don’t care what the statistics are, the difference of classes is all that matters in the economy, maybe poor white people and rich white people wouldn’t be able to get along but it’s no difference from poor black people with rich white people, or poor white people with rich black people. I didn’t think you meant all white people are rich and all black people are poor. It is simply a matter of who has what and who has the privilege, this has nothing to do with race.
To be perfectly honest...I don't have an answer to the question "How should we solve the problem of globalized capitalism?" There are a lot of things that sound beautiful on paper, but are not realistic. Actually, I kind of think that the human race is forever doomed to perish. We keep on digging ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole, and pretty soon we won't be able to dig ourselves out of it, no matter what we do. But I do think that someday, and it may not be in my lifetime, or yours, or you childrens, it's all going to implode and come crashing down on us and we're going to see all of the mistakes that we've made (or let our leaders make in our name.)
I really don’t know how to respond to this, it seems possible, but I can’t make a point for or against it.
I will say this one last time. I posted that article because I was talking about why we went to war in the first place, and what that article was talking about (in some of it) was the excuses that G.W.B. gave, and how they changed over time. It's that simple. I didn't write the article, I didn't say, "read this article...this is how I feel." I was talking about G.W.B. being a deceptive liar, and that article pointed out him giving different excuses as to why we went to Iraq in the first place. That's all. Maybe I should have cut and pasted just those quotes from him, but I didn't. There's nothing that I can do about it now.
When someone posts an article in a debate it usually means that they share those views and are using it as a source to help their views. That’s why I argued it like it was your own views.
The fact that you know who you are right now, have strong beliefs, and are unwavering in them IS something to be proud of. You stand for something, and that's a lot more than 99.9% of people your age can say. Most play video games all day, listen to Lil' Wayne or whatever shit they're playing on the radio at the moment, and their biggest concern in life is trying to be/look like the people on Jersey Shore. I commend you for that.
(http://[url=http://gameaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/lolwut.jpg]http://gameaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/lolwut.jpg[/url])
-
The x picture is supposed to be this.
(http://gameaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/lolwut.jpg)