Re: The wars we're involved in...

[CultureRevolution]

Many people believe alot of things, if you don't agree with it dont bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unecessary.
If you didnt agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a coversation.

[rejoiceitssusan]

Plus you didn't even cite it or put quotation marks around it, what were we supposed to think?

[Undertaker Sheep]

What's wrong with Marxists? You say that Lenin and Stalin were dictators and therefor Marxism sucks? Lenin was not a Marcist, he was barely a communist. Stalin was neither. The Soviet Union under Stalin had little in common with what Marx had wanted it to be. Communism was supposed to be about freedom and the working classes, communities working for themselves and not about 5 year plans and nationwide opression. In the original 'pure' communism there was no leading party which had all powers.

When I said that anarchy is lame I didn't mean that it isn't cool, but that the ideas behind it often are unreachable. Yes, humans were anarchists a long time ago, but we were only with a small amount of people back then. If you got a lot of people, anarchy just won't work. The only results will be chaos and death. The world population would be brought back to a minumum thanks to the people who want to kill, and the only people who remain would be those who refuses to kill, even if someone killed their families. And then you will have a perfect society, perhaps. But it would have come at a great cost. That is what's  'lame' about it.

I still think anarcho-communism is the best chance we have of getting out of this mess we're in right now

[igordog]

Many people believe alot of things, if you don't agree with it dont bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unecessary.
If you didnt agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a coversation.

[rejoiceitssusan]

I do like you, just this whole thread has rubbed me the wrong way because I disagree with a lot of what you said. We're cool but if you say stuff that pisses me off I'm probably gonna say something....

[Floyd]

Many people believe alot of things, if you don't agree with it dont bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unecessary.
If you didnt agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a coversation.

CR and Matt...I never wanted it to reach this point, BUT you guys pushed the issue. It seems to me that when you're talking about something you're stuck on your ideas and you refuse to hear ANYTHING else that anyone has to say. It's all, "That's stupid, that's bullshit, etc..."
Now, I'm going to guess that you're both maybe, what? 19-20 years old? You probably still live with your parents, (and if not, you've been out on your own maybe 6 months to a year, but I doubt it.)
This isn't a personal attack, but I'm calling it like I see it....You have NO IDEA what the REAL WORLD is all about. Everything that you THINK YOU KNOW came from books, the tv, and other sources that you see from your safe little bubble inside your own little world that has nothing to do with reality.
Well guess what? REAL LIFE is much different that what you see from that little bubble. Other people who have lived outside of that bubble where things aren't so clear cut and politically correct have opinions too.
Have you ever had to live in this society without protection? Have you ever had to pay a gas, electric, or water bill, and if you're a few days late be in fear that they'll shut you off and charge you triple to turn it back on? Have you ever had to pay school and property taxes? Have you ever owned and operated a business? Have you ever NOT had healthcare and had a serious problem, then had to decide whether to eat or to go to the doctor?
I'm guessing the answer is no.
Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems...Anarchy would never work in this world again. You have no idea what people are capable of. Do you really expect the high and mighty rich white people to give up what they have to live at the same level as the poor black people living below their means in the projects in these utopian communities that you dream where everyone takes care of one another? When the world is moving forward everyday (not necessarily the way we would ALL like), do you really expect that people would ever be willing to take a step backwards to start over? Fuck no.
You need to listen to what people have to say, state your piece, and talk in a reasonable manner. If you take something away from it, good for you. If not, that's fine, but you can't just be stuck on your own ideas forever...And I gaurantee you that you won't be forever. The older that you get and the more that you learn about life, the more open you'll be to hearing what people have to say. You may not believe me now, but it's true.
Name calling and telling people that they're flat out wrong (even when they're being respectful to you) is bullshit. You'll never get anywhere with that attitude. Live out in the REAL WORLD for a little while, treat people with respect, speak in your own voice, and maybe someone will take you a little more seriously.

Stop being an ageist, just because someone is younger does not mean they are less intelligent or than someone else.

This won't end well... for people other than me. All this arguing is great for the forum, it makes it look active. We should really get Steve or All Dead in here, unless they already joined under another name, in which case, post something bitches.

On the subject of all this, personally, I don' t really care.

[Matt]

What's wrong with Marxists? You say that Lenin and Stalin were dictators and therefor Marxism sucks? Lenin was not a Marcist, he was barely a communist. Stalin was neither. The Soviet Union under Stalin had little in common with what Marx had wanted it to be. Communism was supposed to be about freedom and the working classes, communities working for themselves and not about 5 year plans and nationwide opression. In the original 'pure' communism there was no leading party which had all powers.

When I said that anarchy is lame I didn't mean that it isn't cool, but that the ideas behind it often are unreachable. Yes, humans were anarchists a long time ago, but we were only with a small amount of people back then. If you got a lot of people, anarchy just won't work. The only results will be chaos and death. The world population would be brought back to a minumum thanks to the people who want to kill, and the only people who remain would be those who refuses to kill, even if someone killed their families. And then you will have a perfect society, perhaps. But it would have come at a great cost. That is what's  'lame' about it.

I still think anarcho-communism is the best chance we have of getting out of this mess we're in right now

Wait, what? Did you pull this entire thing out of your ass? I believe in communism. This is something people have a hard time understanding, but anarchy is just a tactic to reach communism. Get it? Living together in communities that take care of themselves, that's communism. No government controlling it, that's anarchism. The results won't be chaos or death. Why would they? You're acting like having no government means that killing someone would have no consequences. Why do people kill? Why would someone who is offered a home, food, and water in return for working in a community kill? Anarchism is NOT a utopia. That is bullshit. People would still get killed/raped. I am not claiming it is a utopia, I'm only claiming it will be much better than what we currently have.

[Floyd]

BUT EVER SINCE GOVERMENT EXISTED RAPES AND MURDERS HAVE NEVER HAPPEND AND THAT IS WHY ANARCIES IS BAD IF SOMETHING IS ILLEGAL THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE WOULD EVER DO IT, THEY MIGHT GET IN TROUBLE.

[Matt]

CR and Matt...I never wanted it to reach this point, BUT you guys pushed the issue. It seems to me that when you're talking about something you're stuck on your ideas and you refuse to hear ANYTHING else that anyone has to say. It's all, "That's stupid, that's bullshit, etc..."

Well have you ever thought "hm, maybe my opinion IS bullshit?"

Now, I'm going to guess that you're both maybe, what? 19-20 years old? You probably still live with your parents, (and if not, you've been out on your own maybe 6 months to a year, but I doubt it.)

15. CR's 14. Thanks for guessing my mental age 5 years above what I actually am, though.

This isn't a personal attack, but I'm calling it like I see it....You have NO IDEA what the REAL WORLD is all about. Everything that you THINK YOU KNOW came from books, the tv, and other sources that you see from your safe little bubble inside your own little world that has nothing to do with reality.
Well guess what? REAL LIFE is much different that what you see from that little bubble. Other people who have lived outside of that bubble where things aren't so clear cut and politically correct have opinions too.

I realize that I haven't lived in the "real world" but I try to learn and listen to those who have lived in the "real world". By the way, saying that school and adolescence isn't a part of the real world is fucking retarded.

Have you ever had to live in this society without protection? Have you ever had to pay a gas, electric, or water bill, and if you're a few days late be in fear that they'll shut you off and charge you triple to turn it back on? Have you ever had to pay school and property taxes? Have you ever owned and operated a business? Have you ever NOT had healthcare and had a serious problem, then had to decide whether to eat or to go to the doctor?
I'm guessing the answer is no.

You are correct, but let's get to what that has to do with anything.

Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems...

Okay, settle down, brosef. You think they taught me about anarchism in school? Bullshit, everything I know about anarchism I researched on my own time.

Anarchy would never work in this world again. You have no idea what people are capable of. Do you really expect the high and mighty rich white people to give up what they have to live at the same level as the poor black people living below their means in the projects in these utopian communities that you dream where everyone takes care of one another?

Why wouldn't it work? What are people capable of and how does that affect an anarchistic society? No, I expect the poor to take it from the rich or kill the rich. Yes, that's right, in a revolutionary situation, I would not fret at the killing of the bourgeoisie. It's not a utopia, for fucks sake.

When the world is moving forward everyday (not necessarily the way we would ALL like), do you really expect that people would ever be willing to take a step backwards to start over? Fuck no.

Go fucking ask those in India and Africa how forward capitalism is moving their communities. See how unwilling they are to go back to the days before colonialism. Also, who said we would be going backwards? You think there would be no technology in an anarchistic society? Bullshit.

You need to listen to what people have to say, state your piece, and talk in a reasonable manner. If you take something away from it, good for you. If not, that's fine, but you can't just be stuck on your own ideas forever...And I gaurantee you that you won't be forever. The older that you get and the more that you learn about life, the more open you'll be to hearing what people have to say. You may not believe me now, but it's true.

Say something worth listening to and I'll give it a shot.

Name calling and telling people that they're flat out wrong (even when they're being respectful to you) is bullshit. You'll never get anywhere with that attitude. Live out in the REAL WORLD for a little while, treat people with respect, speak in your own voice, and maybe someone will take you a little more seriously.

Sometimes people are flat out wrong, you fucking prick. Also, my internet speak and my real life speak are different, so don't lecture me on one when you've only heard me through the other.

[Matt]

BUT EVER SINCE GOVERMENT EXISTED RAPES AND MURDERS HAVE NEVER HAPPEND AND THAT IS WHY ANARCIES IS BAD IF SOMETHING IS ILLEGAL THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE WOULD EVER DO IT, THEY MIGHT GET IN TROUBLE.

YEAH HAVING A BIG METAL BOX WE SEND BAD PPLS STOPS PPL FROM DOING BAD THINGS.

[Undertaker Sheep]

The results indeed won't be chaos and death, like you said, if you have something like anarcho-communism. Anarchism on it's own will probably lead to it, that's just how we humans work.
Anywho, I'm dropping this conversation. The atmosphere is way too tense and calling names or asking if I pulled something out of my ass is far from a normal way to debate about something.

[Floyd]

sez you, I fully endorse name calling and off-topic personal attacks on my forum, THIS IS THE INTERNET, BITCH.

[Undertaker Sheep]

sez you, I fully endorse name calling and off-topic personal attacks on my forum, THIS IS THE INTERNET, BITCH.

Whether you approve of it or not has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's no way to run a debate.

[Floyd]

[Matt]

The results indeed won't be chaos and death, like you said, if you have something like anarcho-communism. Anarchism on it's own will probably lead to it, that's just how we humans work.

No, it's not.