Re: The wars we're involved in...

[Undertaker Sheep]

Then you haven't seen humans when all protection and all certainty fall away.

[Undertaker Sheep]

That's what I'm saying...

We seem to be more on one line here, hehe.

I'm 18 now but I remember that not even a year ago I thought I knew all the answers. I left my school and started hanging out with different people. Some of them are squatters. and just being around them and seeing close hand what they have to deal with just to get by. Man, not even having to face those things myself made me question about everything I ever knew. I think I've experienced quite a bit in my life, but nothing that has anything to do with capitalism or communism/anarchy or whatever.
So yeah, I was like that when I was 15 as well. Laster quite a few years until something started opening my eyes. I guess there's a window in my bubble. I'm planning on moving out next year, probably squat too since a place to stay costs so much these days. I now know that I hardly know anything about myself, while I used to think I knew everything about me. Even now i have a long way to go

Long story short, Igor's right about a lot of things. People should listen to you more often

[Floyd]

People like me would launch satellites and keep the internet running, people who enjoy doing things and expect nothing in return would do those things, expecting nothing, if not very much in return. To assume that an anarchist society would be living in caves with stone knives and wearing bearskins is ridiculous. Technology would probably progress faster, because people would not have as much standing in their way stopping them from making new technologies. New stuff, better than what already exists is invented every day, most of it is never used because the companies that control the old thing use their influence to stop the new thing from being developed, so they can keep their power. with no powers stopping new technological advancements, and no "experts" saying what can and can't be done, technology would still progress.

[Undertaker Sheep]

You would have to go far out of your way to gather the parts needed for a satelite and do a lot of work just putting it together. Then, you're going to have to find a huge-ass rocket. After doing all the calculations for making a thing orbit around a planet (which probably is a lot harder than I think it is), you can have your satelite.

And what you get from it? A few thank yous, and a few beers. You really thinking about devoting a few years of your life for that? If you are, then you're cool. If you're not, you're still cool but also human xD

(no one ever said anything about cavemen btw)

[Matt]

Ya'll need to smart up before I bring Sertra and Steve here to rape you.

[Floyd]

I did not say I would launch satellites myself, no, I said people like me would. There are people everywhere that have the knowledge, or would be willing to learn how to do things that they enjoy doing and would not ask for anything in return. Unfortunately, many people do not have the economic means to accomplish their goal, and they end up stuck in some dead-end job. Would I like to be a astrophysicist? You bet. Will I ever have enough money to go to college for years on end and do that? Unfortunately, no I will probably be stuck on this chicken farm all my life, or if I get lucky, have a job working on computers. I know of people who go to school to be doctors and get good grades, but can't pay and end up flipping hamburgers, that is an absolute waste of potential, and without capitalism, could easily be averted.

[Undertaker Sheep]

Corporate capitalism is a bitch indeed, just like economic and social Darwinism.
The question is, would the people like you from other communities be willing/allowed to work with you for your community. And if they are allowed and willing to, do they have the time?

I feel for ya, man.
One thing I love about my country; our government pays for a part of your college (given that you finish it within the time they give you). The only reason why I can't become a pyschiatrist is because I have (and still am...) too lazy to get high grades, and therefor do not qualify (and probably can't handle) the high education needed for a job like that. Whereas you were kinda robbed of your chances (or were never given them to begin with), I pushed them away from myself. So fuck me, and go you.

But yeah, waste of potential is all around us. A friend of mine could have become a judge, but because of some fucked up accident at his school he got kicked out. Now he's laying bricks all day long. Wishing for that stuff to end is kinda hypocritical of me, seeing as I'm wasting my own potential.

The world is kinda like the song
We get torn apart, all our lives. Just so we're useless or gifted, loved or despised.

[CultureRevolution]

Yes..I just learned that the BATTLE TROOPS left Iraq last night and most of them are coming home. I guess that I spoke too soon. This doesn't necessarily mean that the war there is over, because things are still very unstable, but it is a step in the right direction.
(The article below is taken from msnbc.com)
Last full U.S. combat brigade leaves Iraq
Final fighting force rolls into Kuwait; 50,000 Americans to remain
 "IRAQ-KUWAIT BORDER — The last U.S. combat troops crossed the border into Kuwait on Thursday morning, bringing to a close the active combat phase of a 7½-year war that overthrew the dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein, forever defined the presidency of George W. Bush and left more than 4,400 American service members and tens of thousands of Iraqis dead.

The final convoy of the Army’s 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, based at Fort Lewis, Wash., began entering Kuwait about 1:30 a.m. (6:30 p.m. Wednesday ET), carrying the last of the 14,000 U.S. combat forces in Iraq, said NBC’s Richard Engel, who has been traveling with the brigade as it moved out this week.

NBC News video showed the last Stryker vehicles rolling up to the gate. A guard pulled it back, and the vehicles drove through. The gate closed behind them.

P.J. Crowley, a spokesman for the State Department, told msnbc TV that while the departure is “an historic moment,” he said, it is not the end of the U.S. mission in Iraq.

“We are ending the war ... but we are not ending our work in Iraq,” he said. “We have a long-term commitment to Iraq.”

The White House website first trumpeted the "End of Combat in Iraq" before backtracking to note that the official end of combat operations is Aug. 31. 

Still, and as the last soldiers reached Kuwait after midnight, they said they were proud of their effort."


I guess that I chose the wrong time to talk about the war in IRAQ at least...I still don't agree with us ever going there, or the motives behind it. I know that some of you have said that it wasn't GWB's decision to do it, but as far as I'm concerned he was the face of the evil empire that put our men and women there, and regardless of whether or not he had the final say, he was one of "THEM".

Yeah, I saw this last night, the military will still be in Iraq training the Iraqi army and trying to make it a sustainable force. While also trying to make a sustainable government. I doubt it will actually work but we'll see what happens.
I appreciate you recognizing the pull out timeline and I agree, we never should have gone into Iraq, but there was no way to stop it, many people from Bush's administration have said he wanted to go into Iraq no matter what. It was just a matter of what excuse they/he would use.
I don't buy the stuff about how this isnt a war anymore but I don't know enough about the subject to take a exact point or a exact side.

[Undertaker Sheep]

Anyone else afraid that putting up a 'sustainable government' means setting up yet another puppet government?

[CultureRevolution]

Anyone else afraid that putting up a 'sustainable government' means setting up yet another puppet government?

Exactly.

[CultureRevolution]

Many people believe a lot of things, if you don't agree with it don’t bring it up in a debate. And don't slap an idea on people, just say his name and if people bring it up later then ok, I felt it was unnecessary.
If you didn’t agree with the article, why bring it up? Why post it? Why bring in a third opinion in your own statement and be surprised to have someone rip it apart.
This debate is stupid, a debate should be about ideas, not about why we said certain things and not progressing in a conversation.

CR and Matt...I never wanted it to reach this point, BUT you guys pushed the issue. It seems to me that when you're talking about something you're stuck on your ideas and you refuse to hear ANYTHING else that anyone has to say. It's all, "That's stupid, that's bullshit, etc..."

I’m not stuck on an idea, I just didn’t agree with yours. I listened to all of your points, took an opinion, and threw in my own opinions, I heard, and I reacted, what else do you expect in a debate?

Now, I'm going to guess that you're both maybe, what? 19-20 years old? You probably still live with your parents, (and if not, you've been out on your own maybe 6 months to a year, but I doubt it.)
This isn't a personal attack, but I'm calling it like I see it....You have NO IDEA what the REAL WORLD is all about. Everything that you THINK YOU KNOW came from books, the tv, and other sources that you see from your safe little bubble inside your own little world that has nothing to do with reality
Well guess what? REAL LIFE is much different that what you see from that little bubble. Other people who have lived outside of that bubble where things aren't so clear cut and politically correct have opinions too.

Oh yeah, I don’t know what the real world is all about, I’ve been in my room for 14 years and never met other people with different opinions, other faiths, anything like that. You know nothing about my life so don’t presume what I have run into and what I have done. Just because you are older doesn’t make my opinion any less credible.

Have you ever had to live in this society without protection? Have you ever had to pay a gas, electric, or water bill, and if you're a few days late be in fear that they'll shut you off and charge you triple to turn it back on? Have you ever had to pay school and property taxes? Have you ever owned and operated a business? Have you ever NOT had healthcare and had a serious problem, then had to decide whether to eat or to go to the doctor?
I'm guessing the answer is no.

Yeah, the answer is no, but where did this come up? When did this turn into I’VE HAD MORE ROADBLOCKS, I KNOW MORE, I’VE EXPERIENCED MORE SO I’M RIGHT. Economic trouble and wealth does not define a person’s life.

Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems...Anarchy would never work in this world again. You have no idea what people are capable of. Do you really expect the high and mighty rich white people to give up what they have to live at the same level as the poor black people living below their means in the projects in these utopian communities that you dream where everyone takes care of one another? When the world is moving forward everyday (not necessarily the way we would ALL like), do you really expect that people would ever be willing to take a step backwards to start over? Fuck no.

Yes, I know what I have learned in High School and I know I am still learning, I become more tolerant and more knowledgeable as I get older, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know stuff, or have strong opinions, or am not able to debate. Thanks for resorting to calling me a prick, that really helps your case. The part I bolded, whether you realize it or not was racist, not all rich people are white, not all poor people are black. It is not a matter of race, it is a matter of who has what and who is controlling who in the economy. If you think Anarchy is so shitty, how do you think we should solve the problem of globalized capitalism? You posted very liberal ideas, then posted an article that was obviously far right leaning I don’t get it. Honestly I don’t consider myself an Anarchist, and I can’t sum up my views in one single word, am I am proud of that.
You need to listen to what people have to say, state your piece, and talk in a reasonable manner. If you take something away from it, good for you. If not, that's fine, but you can't just be stuck on your own ideas forever...And I gaurantee you that you won't be forever. The older that you get and the more that you learn about life, the more open you'll be to hearing what people have to say. You may not believe me now, but it's true.
Name calling and telling people that they're flat out wrong (even when they're being respectful to you) is bullshit. You'll never get anywhere with that attitude. Live out in the REAL WORLD for a little while, treat people with respect, speak in your own voice, and maybe someone will take you a little more seriously.

You are upset we don’t agree with you. You thought “I’m Mr. Olderthanallofyou, I can tell you guys what I think and you will all agree and we will have a big Strike Anywhere party. That didn’t happen, you got called out on stuff that other people didn’t agree with and now you’re upset. Also if you want to actually debate, respond to all of my response, don’t pick and choose what you want to talk about.

[Undertaker Sheep]

Well, economic trouble and wealth does define a part of a person's life. And this dude being older than us does make him more knowledgeable about some stuff. Just take racism as example, you don't know how hard it is until you become the constant victim of it. Or being evicted.

But you're right, running into problems in high school is no less real than running into problems when you're on your own.
I never saw Igordog being like ''I'm older so I am right'', he was more like ''I am older, so I've experienced a lot so I know what I'm talking about''.
He never meant to say ''You're wrong cause you live in a bubble'', but more like ''Your opinions and stuff are still being formed, and might change completely'' (I think, don't take my word for it).

I think with 'the real world' he meant the world as you experience it when you're on your own. So yeah, when it comes to paying bills and stuff like that we have not yet experienced the real world. But when it comes to looking at how fucked up things are right now in the world, and dealing with emotional stuff (like losing those you love, being abused and stuff like that) we have experienced the real world all to well. It's just how you define 'the real world', really

[CultureRevolution]

Well, economic trouble and wealth does define a part of a person's life. And this dude being older than us does make him more knowledgeable about some stuff. Just take racism as example, you don't know how hard it is until you become the constant victim of it. Or being evicted.

Yes it defines part of a persons life, but all of his examples had to do with not being able to get by economically. It reminded me of all the stupid arguments i've come across that are just "I'M POORER THAN YOU!"

But you're right, running into problems in high school is no less real than running into problems when you're on your own.
I never saw Igordog being like ''I'm older so I am right'', he was more like ''I am older, so I've experienced a lot so I know what I'm talking about''.
He never meant to say ''You're wrong cause you live in a bubble'', but more like ''Your opinions and stuff are still being formed, and might change completely'' (I think, don't take my word for it).

More experience=/=wise. That was the poin I was trying to make. Yes, you know everything that you learned in high school (and maybe some college), but that just makes you pseudo-intellectual pricks who think that you have all the answers to the world's problems... Here he sounds pissed at us and says we think this, we think that. I don't think I know all the answeres, I never have, never will, my opinions will constantly change, I know this and found it out a while ago. He sounds like an ageist frankly.

I think with 'the real world' he meant the world as you experience it when you're on your own. So yeah, when it comes to paying bills and stuff like that we have not yet experienced the real world. But when it comes to looking at how fucked up things are right now in the world, and dealing with emotional stuff (like losing those you love, being abused and stuff like that) we have experienced the real world all to well. It's just how you define 'the real world', really

He used his age to seem superior and make our points seem less credible because we haven't gone out in the real world. We were talking about the wars in Iraq and Aghanistan and he throws in stuff about the real world. Totally out of the blue and ridiculous. If someone who was in the real world and had my exact views was talking he would have no ammo, he would actually have to debate points, he seems to be avoiding that, since he totally disregarded most of my responses to his posts.

[Matt]

Ageism doesn't really piss me off. Igordog just seems to think that my age has something to do with whether or not anarchism could work.

[CultureRevolution]

I will make a response later, I am on vacation and will be on the road all day tomorrow and will not have the oppurtunity to get on the internet until very early sunday.